Transcript
WEBVTT
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.319
Welcome back to the women's mental health podcast.
00:00:02.350 --> 00:00:03.080
I'm randy.
00:00:03.080 --> 00:00:03.805
I'm And I'm Jess.
00:00:03.834 --> 00:00:12.544
And we are two licensed psychotherapists, and this is a safe space where we talk about mental health, well being, and strategies for coping with life's challenges.
00:00:12.605 --> 00:00:15.595
And how all of this is normal, and you are not alone.
00:00:15.884 --> 00:00:20.585
Today we're addressing a topic that unfortunately many women face in the workplace.
00:00:20.914 --> 00:00:23.065
How to deal with bullies at work.
00:00:23.265 --> 00:00:28.274
And it's such a good topic because it's so hard to tell, especially being women.
00:00:29.054 --> 00:00:33.604
If these are bullies and we constantly talk about bullies with our kids, but we never think about it.
00:00:33.979 --> 00:00:36.469
With ourselves and with the people we work with
00:00:36.500 --> 00:00:56.679
right and I mean there's lots of situations where it can happen And this kind of parallels what we talked about last week in our episode on burnout This can go like hand in hand with that Exactly, so you can find us and more information and our past episodes at women's mental health podcast comm Have you ever had these thoughts?
00:00:57.134 --> 00:01:00.134
What constitutes bullying in the workplace?
00:01:00.405 --> 00:01:03.225
Is workplace bullying a common experience?
00:01:03.494 --> 00:01:09.814
How can I tell the difference between tough management, somebody just talking to me straight, and bullying?
00:01:10.215 --> 00:01:10.484
What
00:01:10.484 --> 00:01:13.375
should I do if I'm experiencing bullying at work?
00:01:13.875 --> 00:01:17.174
Can men be victims of workplace bullying, too?
00:01:17.325 --> 00:01:18.215
That's a great question.
00:01:18.575 --> 00:01:21.305
How can workplace bullying affect mental health?
00:01:22.010 --> 00:01:30.709
What are the legal options for dealing with workplace bullying, especially if it's gotten out of control and you don't, you're not getting any help like at work?
00:01:30.739 --> 00:01:31.579
We'll talk about that.
00:01:31.689 --> 00:01:34.079
How can I support a colleague who is being bullied?
00:01:34.503 --> 00:01:38.072
Can a workplace culture be changed to prevent bullying?
00:01:38.087 --> 00:01:38.658
bullying.
00:01:38.727 --> 00:01:43.748
And that is such a, there's a whole entire thing about like organizational psychology.
00:01:43.768 --> 00:01:43.957
Yes.
00:01:43.977 --> 00:01:44.947
It's all about that.
00:01:45.227 --> 00:01:49.177
Where can I find resources and support in dealing with workplace bullying?
00:01:49.487 --> 00:01:50.987
So we'll answer these.
00:01:51.313 --> 00:01:54.272
thoughts about this topic towards the end.
00:01:54.623 --> 00:02:01.322
Workplace bullying can feel overwhelming and very isolating, especially for women, but you are not alone.
00:02:01.352 --> 00:02:06.022
So we're going to get into what this looks like and how you can take back control.
00:02:06.293 --> 00:02:10.802
We know what bullying is, but let's talk about what is it in the workplace.
00:02:11.122 --> 00:02:19.712
What this is repeated and harmful behavior directed at an employee that's intended to intimidate, humiliate, or undermine them.
00:02:20.092 --> 00:02:22.163
It can come in the form of verbal abuse.
00:02:22.687 --> 00:02:26.747
Exclusion, sabotage, or even physical intimidation.
00:02:27.018 --> 00:02:35.967
So unlike conflicts that arise from occasional disagreements, bullying is ongoing and has a power imbalance, which is huge right there.
00:02:35.987 --> 00:02:37.027
So like you said,
00:02:37.508 --> 00:02:39.388
repeated, repetitive.
00:02:39.862 --> 00:02:40.652
ongoing.
00:02:40.652 --> 00:02:42.013
So this is like a constant.
00:02:42.022 --> 00:02:45.193
It's not like this happened, once, upon a time.
00:02:45.193 --> 00:02:46.643
This is ongoing.
00:02:46.992 --> 00:02:49.622
And it can be very subtle, too.
00:02:49.973 --> 00:02:53.643
For example, someone might start spreading rumors.
00:02:53.943 --> 00:03:15.742
They could, Constantly be like criticizing your work, maybe to others or even to you, they might exclude you from important meanings and projects and then play it off Oh, I just forgot, but when you start seeing this pattern emerge, then that their intention is to chip away at your confidence.
00:03:15.822 --> 00:03:22.421
And take you down at your place on the rung in the ladder in the workplace, maybe they feel threatened by you.
00:03:22.622 --> 00:03:26.072
Or what they're trying to do is block you from moving up.
00:03:26.461 --> 00:03:35.641
I've seen that before too, where they block you and you don't know that they're blocking you until way later that you're like, that's why I couldn't get
00:03:35.641 --> 00:03:36.472
out of the department.
00:03:36.812 --> 00:03:42.111
That's why I didn't get that promotion or, I didn't know that there was a job opening and things like that.
00:03:42.342 --> 00:03:43.171
Exactly.
00:03:43.171 --> 00:03:48.042
And what they're really doing oftentimes, too, is trying to keep you there because it serves them a purpose.
00:03:48.382 --> 00:03:51.382
Because maybe you're doing part of the job that they don't want to do.
00:03:51.581 --> 00:03:54.222
And so if you move, they have to step up and do it.
00:03:54.252 --> 00:03:59.842
And so sometimes it's the intimidation is there because it serves, well, it always serves them a purpose.
00:04:00.431 --> 00:04:01.972
But yeah, I've seen that.
00:04:02.198 --> 00:04:04.802
it's important to understand that workplace bullying is a problem.
00:04:04.939 --> 00:04:08.409
isn't just having a bad day or a single argument.
00:04:08.430 --> 00:04:09.669
Yeah, it's not a once off.
00:04:09.710 --> 00:04:13.556
No, and there are times people get in fights the most common I hear about is the AC.
00:04:14.026 --> 00:04:15.766
Somebody wants it colder than somebody else.
00:04:15.766 --> 00:04:19.826
Like how many offices have you been in where they actually have a freaking lock?
00:04:20.101 --> 00:04:25.262
on the AC thing because that is the thermostat because that is the biggest fight people have.
00:04:25.552 --> 00:04:26.341
That's not bullying.
00:04:26.351 --> 00:04:30.341
Yeah, it's not surrounded around your workplace or your career.
00:04:30.632 --> 00:04:31.112
Exactly.
00:04:31.391 --> 00:04:32.641
What it is a pattern.
00:04:32.641 --> 00:04:40.151
What Randy was talking about is this pattern that makes you feel unsafe, Disrespected or devalued in your work environment.
00:04:40.161 --> 00:04:42.112
Oh, that's such a powerful word.
00:04:42.122 --> 00:04:43.041
Devalued.
00:04:43.312 --> 00:04:43.891
I like that.
00:04:43.891 --> 00:04:44.591
Devalued.
00:04:44.762 --> 00:04:48.682
So where does workplace bullying come from?
00:04:48.682 --> 00:04:52.651
Like where can we see the patterns or the origins of this?
00:04:52.701 --> 00:04:54.382
Where did it all start from?
00:04:55.029 --> 00:04:57.889
this all starts from power dynamics.
00:04:58.069 --> 00:05:00.160
Somebody wants to be in power.
00:05:00.180 --> 00:05:04.509
They might feel threatened by you, by your skills or your position.
00:05:04.860 --> 00:05:06.329
They want to assert dominance.
00:05:06.350 --> 00:05:09.079
They want to compensate for their own insecurities.
00:05:09.089 --> 00:05:10.029
Their tiny penis.
00:05:10.029 --> 00:05:12.310
Small dick.
00:05:12.360 --> 00:05:15.600
I like that small dick energy.
00:05:16.019 --> 00:05:16.329
Okay.
00:05:16.329 --> 00:05:16.925
Okay.
00:05:17.095 --> 00:05:32.762
But what this is, in some toxic work environments, the culture may even unintentionally encourage bullying by rewarding aggressive or competitive behavior instead of being collaborative, I think of those old car sales, where they do those competitions.
00:05:32.791 --> 00:05:33.442
Yeah, I think
00:05:33.442 --> 00:05:36.901
of, like, when I watch, too on Netflix a lawyer show or something.
00:05:36.942 --> 00:05:37.242
Yeah.
00:05:37.242 --> 00:05:38.961
They set each other a standard.
00:05:39.762 --> 00:05:57.437
Yeah, against like you're making partner and you have to take on so many cases and work 5, 000 hours and put in all this extra time and then maybe we'll consider you and it's and often, especially women, since we are paid less and often seen as less as a person as our male colleagues.
00:05:57.586 --> 00:06:07.107
Counterparts that we are always trying to overexcel and overextend ourselves and do more than is necessary.
00:06:07.416 --> 00:06:10.197
that can feed into this, behavior.
00:06:10.226 --> 00:06:13.086
Well, and that's like the Clinton suit, We got to all wear pantsuits.
00:06:13.127 --> 00:06:15.846
You can't dress feminine if you're in an executive position.
00:06:15.857 --> 00:06:17.326
I've seen women do that where.
00:06:17.752 --> 00:06:25.971
They dress a little bit more manly at work, and I don't want to call it manly or not feminine, because they're trying to, More unisex.
00:06:26.112 --> 00:06:26.872
There you go.
00:06:26.882 --> 00:06:27.802
That's so much better.
00:06:27.812 --> 00:06:28.281
Thank you.
00:06:28.331 --> 00:06:29.492
Yes, more unisex.
00:06:29.589 --> 00:06:32.699
Because they're trying to make it so they earn it.
00:06:32.709 --> 00:06:38.079
They didn't sleep their way to the top, but they're trying to play with what we used to call the big boys,
00:06:38.920 --> 00:06:39.139
Yeah.
00:06:39.139 --> 00:06:54.569
Or the boys club and that leads into the societal, components of things that there is like a norm, that women should be seen a certain way or women shouldn't be in the workplace as like history had laid out before.
00:06:54.569 --> 00:06:55.930
And it's no, we're here.
00:06:56.120 --> 00:06:57.069
We're powerful.
00:06:57.139 --> 00:06:57.949
We're important.
00:06:58.170 --> 00:06:59.220
Ooh, wait, hang on.
00:06:59.632 --> 00:07:00.632
Everybody who's listening.
00:07:00.632 --> 00:07:02.622
I just want you to say we're here.
00:07:03.052 --> 00:07:04.132
We're powerful.
00:07:04.163 --> 00:07:05.423
We are important.
00:07:05.612 --> 00:07:06.283
We're here.
00:07:06.773 --> 00:07:08.002
We're powerful.
00:07:08.293 --> 00:07:10.023
We are important.
00:07:10.083 --> 00:07:11.653
I'm just, I had to repeat that right there.
00:07:11.673 --> 00:07:11.973
Yeah.
00:07:12.233 --> 00:07:25.062
And so this kind of leads to, in some cases that bullies target women specifically because of these gender stereotypes or because they perceive those stereotypes to be true.
00:07:25.072 --> 00:07:32.971
Maybe they've been raised a certain way and they're using tactics to undermine your authority or your professional standing.
00:07:33.161 --> 00:07:33.971
Well, think about it.
00:07:33.971 --> 00:07:41.211
You just recently went and purchased a larger item recently and the sales person, Oh, she's like cringing and trying to breathe.
00:07:41.591 --> 00:07:47.572
The salesperson didn't talk to you, but went to your husband and your husband turned around and said, Oh, no, I'm not the one buying it.
00:07:47.572 --> 00:07:48.911
You need to talk to her, her money.
00:07:49.112 --> 00:07:51.732
And he still talked to him over
00:07:51.742 --> 00:07:52.052
me.
00:07:52.062 --> 00:07:52.512
Yes.
00:07:52.831 --> 00:07:59.252
And then we ended up going to a different person to purchase something and that was all fine and dandy.
00:07:59.252 --> 00:08:02.581
But then we went to the financing department.
00:08:02.872 --> 00:08:04.221
We hadn't met them before.
00:08:04.252 --> 00:08:07.882
And I'm literally writing the check.
00:08:07.932 --> 00:08:10.312
Everything is only in my name only.
00:08:10.362 --> 00:08:13.262
My partner and my kids are there with me, cause they were excited.
00:08:13.591 --> 00:08:20.841
And He's sitting there ignoring me and talking to him and asking him, so what do you do for work?
00:08:21.201 --> 00:08:27.891
I've had financing guys do that too, where I'm sitting there putting, my husband's social, I'm doing everything, I'm filling it out and I'm, working it out.
00:08:27.942 --> 00:08:30.422
And yes, he is the mathematician and he does all the math.
00:08:30.891 --> 00:08:34.351
And the guy was like, Oh, your wife knows all this.
00:08:34.351 --> 00:08:37.741
He goes, Oh yeah I'd be lost without her, but she's probably not going to be lost without me.
00:08:38.207 --> 00:08:48.398
Even when I went with my husband to buy something with him too, he still said, you have to get through her for me to make this final decision.
00:08:48.408 --> 00:08:50.048
So don't treat her like crap.
00:08:50.087 --> 00:08:52.538
And they still are like, what color do you want?
00:08:52.538 --> 00:08:54.878
And I'm like, I don't, that's not what I'm here for.
00:08:54.927 --> 00:08:55.518
Do you know there's
00:08:55.518 --> 00:08:59.857
a mirror in the visor and you're like, Do I care?
00:08:59.888 --> 00:09:00.888
How fast does this go?
00:09:00.888 --> 00:09:01.067
Yeah.
00:09:01.067 --> 00:09:01.177
I
00:09:01.177 --> 00:09:02.508
was like, tell me about the engine.
00:09:02.518 --> 00:09:03.557
Tell me about the warranty.
00:09:03.618 --> 00:09:11.857
Anyway, so this workplace bullying, how does it affect us as women via our mental health?
00:09:12.429 --> 00:09:17.820
When we, as women are bullied in the workplace, it has such a huge impact.
00:09:18.129 --> 00:09:25.009
On our mental health, it leads to chronic stress and anxiety and depression, even PTSD.
00:09:25.090 --> 00:09:29.870
And if we could diagnose it, we would probably call it compound PTSD, CPTSD.
00:09:29.870 --> 00:09:34.350
It is not a diagnosis yet, but that is when all of this just builds and builds.
00:09:34.399 --> 00:09:38.009
And we get this compounded PTSD, this constant.
00:09:38.164 --> 00:09:40.134
feeling of being under attack.
00:09:40.554 --> 00:09:44.585
It will erode your self confidence and it's going to really make it.
00:09:44.595 --> 00:09:49.855
So not only are you occupationally burnt out, listen to our podcast that we did on that.
00:09:50.184 --> 00:09:52.654
You're not going to be able to enjoy your work and you're going to leave.
00:09:52.664 --> 00:09:53.865
And that's what they're trying to do.
00:09:53.875 --> 00:09:57.433
They are trying to make your life miserable and make you leave.
00:09:58.014 --> 00:09:59.644
Because they don't want you there anymore.
00:09:59.955 --> 00:10:02.554
And unfortunately, sometimes there's nothing you can do.
00:10:02.565 --> 00:10:07.075
We'll talk later about this, but sometimes you have to leave because it isn't going to change, right?
00:10:07.075 --> 00:10:10.205
If it's unhealthy and it's toxic, exactly.
00:10:10.205 --> 00:10:12.605
You have to take like these steps to protect yourself.
00:10:13.115 --> 00:10:19.504
And especially as women, we often internalize these experiences.
00:10:19.514 --> 00:10:21.534
So instead of like letting it out.
00:10:21.924 --> 00:10:31.514
We pull it in and that makes us question our ability, question our career, like feeling sometimes like we're the problem.
00:10:31.524 --> 00:10:36.654
Almost like we're being, gaslit and that we start thinking like, is it me?
00:10:36.894 --> 00:10:37.240
Is it them?
00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:37.845
Is it me?
00:10:37.875 --> 00:10:39.514
And then we start singing Taylor Swift songs.
00:10:39.514 --> 00:10:40.379
It's me.
00:10:40.379 --> 00:10:41.673
I'm the problem.
00:10:41.674 --> 00:10:42.274
I'm the problem.
00:10:42.274 --> 00:10:43.664
And I don't know.
00:10:43.664 --> 00:10:52.404
Sometimes I feel like that song, even though I love her, did a disservice because I think we're taught that we are often the problem, but we are usually not the problem.
00:10:52.445 --> 00:10:55.615
And we will always say sorry first, always say sorry.
00:10:55.615 --> 00:10:59.414
Listen to our other podcasts about saying no and stop saying sorry.
00:10:59.794 --> 00:11:14.455
all these things compounded can lead to feelings of self doubt feeling helplessness, feeling hopelessness, and this can spill over then from the workplace into your personal life, your personal relationships.
00:11:14.485 --> 00:11:15.585
It can affect your sleep.
00:11:15.615 --> 00:11:16.044
Yes.
00:11:16.105 --> 00:11:18.554
It can affect your physical body.
00:11:18.554 --> 00:11:21.475
It can affect your overall just well being.
00:11:21.658 --> 00:11:24.225
It, bleeds over into everything.
00:11:24.504 --> 00:11:28.215
And honestly, we are already exhausted for the most part.
00:11:28.215 --> 00:11:29.534
We're caring for our family.
00:11:29.794 --> 00:11:33.245
We may be managing our own health issues, going through perimenopause.
00:11:33.245 --> 00:11:39.811
At this point, most of us are starting to hit these different hormonal things, dealing with basic societal pressures.
00:11:39.850 --> 00:11:42.160
And then we got to deal with this crap at work too.
00:11:42.201 --> 00:11:47.514
And so this is where it becomes so overwhelming You have to like, find relief or escape.
00:11:47.825 --> 00:11:56.274
that's hard when you get to that point where you're just like, I can't handle it anymore because, again, these things that can lead into other mental health issues and addictions.
00:11:56.284 --> 00:11:57.125
Over shopping.
00:11:57.125 --> 00:11:58.054
Over spending.
00:11:58.054 --> 00:11:58.955
Like drinking.
00:11:59.105 --> 00:12:00.664
'cause you're trying to, eating, yeah.
00:12:00.664 --> 00:12:01.325
Overeating.
00:12:01.325 --> 00:12:06.004
You're trying to escape this reality that you feel like is out of control.
00:12:06.004 --> 00:12:10.335
And so you're trying to take back control of things, but then it can spiral out of control.
00:12:10.544 --> 00:12:16.965
So how do we start to take back control and cope with workplace bullying?
00:12:17.321 --> 00:12:22.410
Something I learned, very young age, is document everything.
00:12:22.471 --> 00:12:26.360
Oh yeah, a calendar, a day planner, anything, notes in your phone.
00:12:26.471 --> 00:12:27.900
Do not keep
00:12:27.900 --> 00:12:37.600
it in your work computer and work file because if they fire you, they take your laptop, they shut you down, you can't get to your emails.
00:12:37.671 --> 00:12:56.663
Always blind copy yourself at home in a separate email that you know you just keep for this Or just a separate file so you have your copies, Keep record of the incident, the date, the times, what was said or done, any witnesses, what your involvement was, if you know what caused or started this.
00:12:57.163 --> 00:13:05.062
Documentation can help you build a case if you decide to report the behavior to HR or if you're going to go get legal help.
00:13:05.332 --> 00:13:08.173
If you don't have documentation, You have no proof.
00:13:08.192 --> 00:13:08.472
It is.
00:13:08.482 --> 00:13:12.222
He said, she said, and you have to document.
00:13:12.243 --> 00:13:12.562
Yeah.
00:13:12.592 --> 00:13:16.153
And it's really hard to recall things to at a later date.
00:13:16.163 --> 00:13:16.533
Yes.
00:13:16.562 --> 00:13:23.123
They even say like somebody who just witnessed a crime, they go in and say what happens and it's not even 24 hours later and.
00:13:25.293 --> 00:13:30.743
So if you're thinking back, six months or a year and you're like, I think this happened, I think this person was there.
00:13:30.743 --> 00:13:32.743
I think this, that's just even more stress.
00:13:32.743 --> 00:13:37.133
So if, once you start noticing this is happening, definitely document it.
00:13:37.283 --> 00:13:45.763
The other thing for documentation too, in addition to writing some states, check with your state, you can record without the other person's permission.
00:13:46.265 --> 00:13:51.066
maybe you want to take and make a recording of what is happening or the conversation.
00:13:51.066 --> 00:13:51.855
So you have it.
00:13:52.176 --> 00:14:02.206
But again, check with your state laws because some states it's illegal and so you can't use it unless you say, I'm recording you, but in a lot of states it's legal.
00:14:02.216 --> 00:14:04.725
So it's all fair game to record that kind of stuff.
00:14:05.062 --> 00:14:05.802
What else, Randy?
00:14:05.870 --> 00:14:09.720
You should, as we always talk about, set boundaries.
00:14:10.019 --> 00:14:11.769
So we have a podcast about that too.
00:14:11.769 --> 00:14:14.210
We have lots of articles on it on our website.
00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:19.629
So first start to see if you can limit your interactions with the bully.
00:14:19.629 --> 00:14:20.179
Okay.
00:14:20.500 --> 00:14:27.519
If that's not possible because you're working, your boss, it's your coworker, your colleague, you're a day to day action.
00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:28.129
That's hard.
00:14:28.460 --> 00:14:31.799
You don't have to engage in their behavior.
00:14:31.850 --> 00:14:35.340
You don't have to accept their mistreatment of you.
00:14:35.750 --> 00:14:40.600
You can still be professional and say, no, I won't allow that.
00:14:40.900 --> 00:14:43.221
Use assertive communication.
00:14:43.370 --> 00:14:44.301
Don't apologize.
00:14:44.620 --> 00:14:45.000
Yeah.
00:14:45.191 --> 00:14:48.990
Stand your ground without being confrontational.
